10 Early Signs of a Spiritual Awakening – Swedenborg and Life

Have you ever heard something that wasn't really there or had racing thoughts that you
couldn't control? How about an all permeating feeling of joy
in your body or the uncontrollable urge to fall flat on your face? Well you're not alone. In October of 1858 the Royal Library in Stockholm
bought a nondescript little book discovered in the library of a professor who had died
a few years before. But the book didn't belong to the professor. It had actually been written a hundred years
earlier by a scientist who at that time just happened to be going through a major spiritual
awakening. And in that journal he kept, through his descriptions
of his dreams, dark nights of the soul and even his physical symptoms, we get a front-row
seat, a behind-the-scenes look at what it's like to open to an entirely new dimension
of reality. So what does it look like? What does it feel like and can we use it to
recognize these same changes in ourselves? We're going to check it out tonight.

Stay tuned. [Music]
Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Swedenborg
and Life. Today we're going to be looking at ten early
signs of a spiritual awakening. I'm going to do that with you. My name is Curtis Childs and I'm the host. We're going to be looking at a spiritual awakening
today, specifically the spiritual awakening of Emanuel Swedenborg. And what is cool about Swedenborg in general
or one of the things that is cool about Swedenborg is how well documented his stuff is.

All the stuff after his awakening, all of
his travels and journeys and his interactions and his discoveries but even the awakening
itself. We find luckily for us a play-by-play that
he wrote while he was going through it. So we're going to take that during tonight. We're going to see him go from being a very
successful, with-it, practicing, publishing, scientist to becoming a very with-it practicing,
publishing, mystic or Revelator or whatever you want to call him.

But in the middle where we're gonna look at
now, things get a little bit wild. It seems like there's this collapse, there's
this major period of upheaval as he sort of births into this spiritual world. And we're gonna take a look at how it happened
in him and you're going to notice that it's a holistic process, that you're going to see
that it's an emotional thing for him. That he's dealing with feelings and feelings
that we would recognize, things like despair, feelings of unworthiness. Youíre going to see itís intellectual. The way he's thinking about the world is changing. He's getting new concepts in his mind. It's also supernatural.

There are events in there that don't originate
in the physical world. There are things he sees and hears but it
also is physical. There are these symptoms that he feels very
plainly in his body connected to all of this and so we have this amazing picture. It's sort of like, you know, one of the – like
a woolly mammoth trapped in ice – like this amazing thing that's preserved. We get to see bit by bit, as an awakening
happens and you know if it happened for him maybe there's something in there that's relevant
to your own life and it's just fun to take a look so we're going to do that. But first, mental seatbelt. This show is not better than medical advice. It does not supersede medical advice.

So these symptoms weíre going to describe,
if you're having these, first get it checked out with a doctor. Make sure that you're all good on the physical
front. Then we can do the spiritual thing and we're
going to do it right now and we're going to look at this material. This is fascinating archival content with
a very special guest so let's get ready to go on the journey of a spiritual awakening. As I said, we're gonna look straight at field
notes from this amazing awakening. We're gonna do it with a guest, my good friend
Dr. Jonathan Rose – so excited to have you back on. Thanks for coming on the show. Good to be here. Absolutely. Jonathan is, you know, he's a smart guy, he's
an expert in Swedenborg and translating Swedenborg's works but this even – we're going to look
at a source that it's even a little before the stuff that you're translating.

Earliest things, so thanks for coming on. It's good fun, really looking forward to it. Have you any initial thoughts that start us
off with? Well it's just a one person's experience and
it's actually – this is only from one source that we get this; that we'll hear about in
a little bit. Right, that's right, and so it's a particular
slice. It's not necessarily representative but it's
fascinating to look at, you know, what went on there. It's not the only way a spiritual cat can
be skinned. Sorry, that's very great crude thing to say,
but it may have relevance. That's right. And I actually for this episode did some homework. I went to the archives of the Swedenborg library
and learned a little bit about what this Journal of Dreams that he wrote, is all about.

So here, check it out. Oh we're going in about now. This is Swedenborg's Journal of Dreams, it's
also called his Dream Diary and it's a private journal in which he recorded all his dreams
in the year 1743 and 1744. This is the photographs of – these are photographs
of his original writing. You can see, well you might not be able to
tell, but it's in Swedish. All right, not Latin. So this is just his own private journal, not
intended for publication. And these years 1743 and 1744 were the years
in which he was transitioning from scientist to seer. And so the content of these dreams has some
significant spiritual upheaval and it's thought to be the longest and oldest series of dreams
that's been recorded. This is really what – he's making that switch
from being a career scientist to whatever he became.

That's right, whatever he became. Totally cool to see that original scribbling
and I would say – you've read it as well. Warning to everybody out there. This may be something you're comfortable with,
maybe not, the language in this Journal is very Christian. It's interesting that although Chara Daum
was talking there about him turning from a scientist into a seer, it's interesting that
even at the very beginning of this Journal you see very – you know, it's not the scientist
language with a clipboard and saying I objectively experienced this and I'm fascinated.

I'd like to run experiments, rational explanation. That's right, no he's kind of a bible thumper,
he's sort of a Jesus Freak and praying and worrying about his own sin and salvation. And maybe you were saying, more so than usual
because of the circumstances. Yes I think so. I know George Dole has a theory that he went
back to his childhood faith as this awakening began and so it's sort of the child's way
of holding it, in a way, which is kind of neat and then that could get sort of re-upgraded
as he goes along with it. And what I find fascinating is, if any of
you have watched anything about Swedenborg, read him before, you'll know that he, through
his spiritual experiences, after this, he gained this whole new world view, some of
which deviates quite stupendously from Christianity.

It's a whole different thing but at the time
he was writing this he didn't really have those new beliefs intact. That's right, what you read here are the writings
of a Lutheran with a pretty traditional Lutheran take on the Trinity and salvation and things
like that. But still, there is universal stuff in there. Yes. Once you understand that's the language he's
speaking, you know, I can pick out how this applies and we're going to help to translate
that language. That's right, yeah. So I want to know – because we modeled this
whole show after some of your research on the symptoms – How did you get to these ten
symptoms? Well I've been fascinated with the Journal
of Dreams for a while because it is this transitional work and it only survived in manuscript.

He didn't publish it and as you've said in
the intro, was, you know, not known for a long time after his death. Almost destroyed. Anyway it came to light and it shows such
an interesting thing. I went through there and saw some 24 different
kind of symptoms or whatever you call them. Because I've been interested, was this a momentary
thing, was this a process that Swedenborg went through? How does an awakening happen? Right, right, how do you go from just being
ordinary scientist guy to being this Revelator mystic and how does that happen? And so partly what I did was I grouped the
things that I saw more than once, things that happened a number of times, and so we kind
of came up with a top 10 list, going down from 10 to number 1 is the thing that happened
the most frequently.

So that's fun just arbitrarily kind of assign
them that way. Again, not fully comprehensive. This is not the only things he went through
but these came up enough that it's worth our time and it's also worth saying that it's
going to seem like everything's falling apart for him here. That's right, yes and part of what's interesting
about that, is that you might not realize from reading the Journal of Dreams itself
in isolation that this was a person with a very active day job. He was working for the Royal Board of Mines
and assessing mining and that was one of the chief ways that Sweden earned income at the

So he had a very important government position. He was also writing a lengthy work that he
anticipated would be 17 volumes in length on the human body, anatomy and so on. So he was very active during his daytime – this
journal of dream shows you what was going on at night – and things are really changing
for him at night. Yeah so he was able to – he was still high
functioning and as you'll see that even though there's this chaos in what he's experiencing
as it happens, once he gets through to the other side, things become very clear and it
sort of sets the trajectory for his next work.

And it's not all clear during this process. You know, he doesn't always know what's going
on it seems. So let's see him not know what's going on,
right, let's get into this. We got your top your ten signs – top ten signs
of a spiritual awakening. So let's begin at number 10. Sweating. You guys were hoping for something cooler
than that? Actually know that there are symptoms that
anybody can do, however the things that bring them about are what's the difference here. And this is from his Journal of Dreams 174. ëDuring the whole night, for about 11 hours,
I was in a strange trance, neither asleep nor awake.

I knew all that I dreamt, but my thoughts
were kept bound, which at times caused me to sweat. I cannot describe the nature of that sleep,
during which my double thoughts were as it wereí ñ (okay now, double thoughts. That's a spoiler because thatís coming later. Donít worry, weíll explain it. Thatís all right.) ñ ëwere as it were separated from each other
or torn asunder.í It's a very interesting quote because he says that he knew all that
he dreamed. One of the things that people have found remarkable
about his Journal of Dreams is that he seemed to be remembering 6, 7, 8 dreams a night. Yeah. You know, some of us at our best can remember
one or two, that kind of thing, and he knew all that he dreamed but he was also having
thoughts and his thoughts seemed to be stuck. They were bound and that was what was causing
him to sweat.

Wasn't the physical temperature in the bed
or whatever you know, he was sweating about the state of his thought and he knew what
he was dreaming so you already see a little hint of different states of consciousness. Right, right, right, yeah so he was somehow
distressing his body enough that it was actually physical perspiration. mm-hmm And you can see, sort of, intense swing
of emotions there and if it gets intense enough you'll run into number nine. Oh wait, we got another ten quote donít we. Yeah, yeah that's right. Donít go to number nine yet. I forgot. This is an important piece of the puzzle. Now this is from the Journal of Dreams number
71. Yeah, which I totally set out of order, but
if you'll forgive me though.

ëThis last temptationí – oh yeah this is
just sort of giving you more perspective on this sweating thing. ëThis last temptationí (Now, temptation
is a Swedenborgian term where he uses to describe like spiritual struggles, trials, and so on.) ëwas more severe than the former in this
respect that it reached to the innermost, but over against this I received a yet stronger
evidence of the Spirit, for at times I broke into a perspiration; what then came up in
my mind was no longer anything that could condemn me, for I had the strong confidence
that it was forgiven me, but that I should excuse myself and set myself free.í Whatís
all that? Yeah, you can see that again – there's this
sense of, Am I saveable? Am I not? He's really – in crisis.

He seems worried about this. Yes. A spiritual crisis, which is another way of
expressing temptation and you see that it seemed as though that very situation was causing
him to perspire. He was sweating from the spiritual struggle. And it's somewhat centered on his pride, like
he was seeing things in himself that he was really coming up against. And yet, he found himself able to forgive
himself. So there's a lot of different moods in each
of these little quotes. Yeah. There's a lot going on. This is the up and down and this is what I
was thinking of before, because he experiences these extremes and they can bring about the
symptom that's in number 9, which is weeping. So we have another symptom involving the release
of water and this is also something people can do, but when you see the source of why
he's weeping, you can see the difference, and we want to read a dream that he had to
you – we got Dr.

Jonathan Rose to read it – and this is him describing a series of events
in the night that led to some of this spiritual awakening induced weeping. So this is from his Journal of Dreams number
36. ëI experienced nothing the whole night, although
I repeatedly woke up, I thought everything was past and gone and that I was forsaken
or driven away. Towards the morning it seemed to me I was
riding and the direction was shown to me but when I looked, it was dark, and I found I'd
lost my way on account of the darkness. But then it lightened up and I saw that I
had gone wrong.

I saw the road and the forests and groves
to which I should travel and behind them the sky. I awoke. There came then a thought as it were spontaneous
about the first life and in consequence about the other life and it seemed to me everything
was full of grace. I fell a weeping because I had not been loving
but rather had offended him who has led me and shown me the way even unto the kingdom
of grace and that I, unworthy one, have been received into grace.í Again this theme of
unworthiness comes up.

That's right, he's weeping with this sense
of like – God has been so good to him. Right. There's an interesting reference in there
to his first life and then the second life. Yeah and what – is that just life in this
physical world and then after death? It's not sure – or is it like before and after
this process – or is it just this transition he's going through? And part of what's interesting about the Journal
of Dreams, it wasn't written for anybody else other than his own eyes it seems.

You know, it's very rude of us, but it's for
science. I mean yeah that's right, for the greater
good. And it can be cryptic, you know, because of
that but it's really cool and that sense – I really feel that sense in there, of his sense
that wow, God had been so good to him and he had kind of rebuffed, you know, like pushed,
hadn't done the right thing, hadn't treated the Lord the right way or something like that. It's still within his sort of Lutheran worldview
of this, like God and like worthy and unworthy. You feel that coming through ñ salvation,
that's right. We have another one that involves weeping
in case you guys didn't get enough out of the first weeping. This is the Journal of Dreams number 71. ëEvery now and then I burst into tears, not
of sorrow but of inmost joy that our Lord has been willing to show such great grace
to so unworthy a sinner.í (So this sort of same dynamic but these are tears of joy. Yeah, there's a little more joyful this one.) ëFor the sum and substance of – then so this
is why – for the sum and substance of all I found was that the one and only thing is
to cast oneself in humility upon the grace of our Lord, to perceive one's own unworthiness,
and to thank God in humility for His grace; for if there is any glorification therein,
looking towards one's own honor – whether it be glorification of the grace of God or
anything else – it is impure.í Yeah, just wanting, seeking that humility and just you
know, thank you to the Lord and everything and weeping for joy.

You know, this is not for sorrow but for joy,
because he feels like he's being blessed in a way beyond what he deserves. And you see kind of this separation from ego
there, that he's saying like yeah even if you're doing stuff that you would think I
was so good like praising God and all that, if you're doing it for yourself, for your
own reasons, – itís still not right – and he could sense this in a way that obviously
he couldn't before. And just to preface all this, I mean Swedenborg
super-successful, super-smart, and admittedly in here and later on he was really full of

So one of his primary struggles was this like
wow, everything I've done has been selfish. Yeah he built up an enormous reputation. He was quite a famous person in Europe at
the time and so he yeah he was a serious person in Europe at the time and to watch him going
through this is kind of amazing – in his private life, at the midnight hour. Yeah, yeah, because that was sort of his life,
his struggle, that affects what his awakening is centered around. Which is – I don't know – or is that a universal,
you know, do we all have this ego – it just not as obvious if we're not as successful
as him ñ Right. Nobody knows, but you guys are going to know
some more symptoms. Now these first two, you might have said,
this is not cool, this is just sweating and crying. I did that this morning. Yeah. But the next couple symptoms are things that
not everyone can do. We're going to get to them in part two.

So yeah, like I promised, now we're gonna get into the really strange stuff. I mean this is not stuff you can just, you
know, compare notes and say I've done that and to prove it we got symptom number eight
here, which symptom eight is hearing noise. Yes, okay, so anybody – not just noises like
that, yeah, wonderful effect there – anybody can hear noises but we're talking about supernatural. Supernatural, yes, it seems as though his
senses started to become – now sensation is tricky, because you think of as being physical,
right, like hearing is a physical thing and yet he starts as youíll hear in this quote
that he starts to hear things that are of a non-physical nature, even very powerful
sounds. Yeah. And so it seems like these inner senses, this
inner hearing is opening up. That's a huge part of Swedenborg spiritual
experiences, after all this is over, is that, he says his inner sight was opened. Right. Our channel name off-the-left-eye, it's all
about the opening of his spiritual senses. So many titles say things heard and seen. Right, you know, that he's hearing and seeing
in that other world.

So is this the beginning of that. We're going to see. This is another reading from Swedenborgís
Journal of Dreams 51 to 52 and it ain't gonna be visuals. It's an audio thing so just you know, close
your eyes or not and experience what he experienced at the time. ëAt 10 o'clock I went to bed and felt somewhat
better. Half an hour afterwards I heard a noise beneath
my head and I then thought that the tempter had departed. Immediately there came over me a powerful
tremor from the head and over the whole body together with a resounding noise and this
occurred a number of times. I found that something holy had encompassed
me. I then fell asleep but about twelve, one or
two o'clock in the night there came over me a very powerful tremor from the head to the
feet accompanied with a booming sound as if many winds clashed against one another. It was indescribable and it shook me and prostrated
me on my face.

In the moment that I was prostrate, I became
wide-awake and I saw that I had been thrown down.í Powerful sound. hmm So this is not just like Oh, I heard a
little tapping at the window, right; something more. That's right, I'm interested in the beginning
of that quotation. ëHe hears a sound underneath his head.í
He's presumably lying in the bed, right, but he hears something down from beneath him and
he thinks, he reads it as that the tempter is gone, you know, he's going through some
kind of temptation or spiritual crisis and as if that evil spirit is gone or something. Yeah. But then later he has this experience of this
tremendous sound, the winds crashing together, yeah, and he's thrown onto his face, which
is one we will hear some more about a little bit later. They occur, sort of, within these bunches
though ñ the symptoms. Yeah. But the powerful sound and like this overwhelming
experience, it's like the spiritual world is not just audible but like unignorable.

That's right, a sound so powerful that it
throws you on your face. Yeah, as you say, it's not like just a little,
you know, still small voice or something, you know, this is something very loud that
heís experiencing. Well if we're going to be going down the spiritual
sensory path, you know, we've got our hearing down. Let's take a look at another of your primary
five – Seeing – but not just seeing, seeing people who had died. That's right, now you know Swedenborg, you
know, famous by now for all his interactions with people who passed on, but he wasn't at
this time. He hadn't had those kind of experiences and
during this Journal you start to see him see people. Most of the people that he mentions are his
own relatives. Okay. Probably the person he sees the most is his
own father who died eight years before – Jesper – he also sees his mother, he sees his brother
Eliezer who had died really young and had died over 20 years earlier.

Okay, like a little baby? He had a brother who died as a baby, but Eliezer
lived a little longer but died in 1717 which is a long time before this. But he saw him as a grown up? Yes, yes and he says I saw my deceased brother
in the other world. He also saw a political figure of Count Arvid
Horn who was a nobleman at the time. Yeah. You know, itís kind of random, and it's hard
to tell whether he's seeing them in dreams or visions but part of what makes me think
he was really contacting these people is that, for instance, he has a conversation with his
father that goes on in something like June and he asked his father a question and then
at the end of September his father comes back with an answer. It's like, you know, I don't have dreams where
I pose a question, you know, then four months later you get an answer. Sorry, that got to the bottom of my Inbox. Yeah, I was I was busy. Yeah, that's that's like you're interacting
with something that's responding and something that takes time to calculate and ñ yeah,
that's right, and very meaningful.

Some of the conversations were about like
– I think the father kind of expected him to be a clergyman – and there's kind of a
dream he has with it that sort of gets healed. So he starts – to feel the dreams – to experience
people who are in the other world. It's not yet to the full point of waking,
ongoing conversations, but it seems like he's being prepared for that kind of contact.

Right, he's just starting to move into it. Those are a couple of wild ones but there
are still like, okay everybody gets ñ I see dead people; everybody knows that. That's right. Here's something that probably you never heard
before, symptom number six, double thoughts. And we're going to let Swedenborg described
just what those double thoughts were. This is from his Journal of Dreams number
69. ëIt was wonderful – and he doesn't mean great,
right, he mean it was like astounding, like it would fill him with wonder or amazing;
so the original meaning of the word – it was wonderful that I was able to have at one and
the same time two thoughts quite distinct from one another – the one for myself, which
occupied entirely the thoughts of others; and at the side of this the thoughts of the
temptation, in such a manner that nothing was powerful enough to drive them away.

They held me captive so that I did not know
whether to flee, for I carried them with me.í I carried them with me. Yes so – what does he mean there when he says
that I had one set of thoughts which occupies other people and then, whatís that? I don't know exactly what he's talking about
there but it seems like he had one set of thoughts that was like a normal set, like
other people have, – you and I have, what we are used to ñ yeah, and he watched, he's
able to watch all that.

What amazes me is that he's sensitive to this,
like he perceives it, you know, and so he notices that he's having the same kind of
thoughts and he's watching all that go on and there's another set of thoughts and they're
kind of frozen or he can't control them and they're negative it seems. Like he says they're from the temptation and
everything and he can't get out of them. They just keep hammering, so it's like two
you know, two voices going on in his head at the same time and it is very interesting
and and not an agreement at all. It's two entirely, you know, what what makes
you feel like your thoughts are your own is that they often are in your voice ñ yeah
– and you sort of have some reason why you're thinking them.

Yeah, but the fact that he's thinking stuff
he doesn't even want to be thinking and it's stuck in his head and it disagrees with his
other thoughts. It's a different kind of state – distinct
enough for him to mention it. That's right. We've all had like, I can't stop thinking
about; I can't get a song out of my head. But he was feeling like, this, I'm gonna label
this. And he talked about it more in the Journal
of Dreams 148 where he says – ëThis day also I have been somewhat disturbed in my mind,
because against my will, the thoughts were flying for and against, and I could not control
them.í Yes, could not control them and so there's one set of thoughts, he doesn't say
what the issue is, – right – in that quote, but there are thoughts for, there are thoughts
against, completely opposite bodies of thought.

Yeah. You know, going in two different directions
and he can't control either of them. He says, they're flying and so I don't know
exactly what it's like. This is all some kind of like – there's a
spiritual struggle going on of like the negative part of him and the positive part or that
he's awakening to this new thing and somehow that clash is beginning to be represented
in these. That's right, and as he looks back on this
later he starts to see that he thinks – Oh those were spirits – like that was spirit
influence. He's, you know, he can call it the tempter
or something but I don't think he's totally connected with the thought, from things he
says later, hasn't totally connected with the idea that these are separate beings who
are putting these thoughts in his mind, you know. He just thinks, wow, I'm having two sets of
thoughts or something. Right. And he was distressed by these a lot of the
time, and you can see why in this next quote.

This is from 158. He says ëThis day I have been in most severe
temptation, so that when I thought of Jesus Christ there at once came ungodly thoughts,
which I could not be blamed for, as it seemed to me.í So Jesus being obviously something
very precious to him and then this sort of corrupt, rude, intrusive thoughts coming in. ëI struck myselfí – like he slapped himself
or something ñ ëbut I can affirm that I had never, but I can affirm that I had never
felt such lively courage as this day, not in the smallest degree cast down, timorous
or hurt as on other days.í So it seems like on other days this kind of thing would happen,
those ungodly thoughts would happen and he'd be terrified by them or depressed or something.

But not this time. Yeah, right and ëalthough the temptation
was most severeí – yeah, so it's extra severe and yet he sort of held up better during it. And so why? ëThe reason is that our Lord had given me
the strong faith and confidence that he helps me for Jesus Christ's sake and his promise,
so that I then found out the work of faith.í And if anyone knows Swedenborg that last sentence
ëGod helps me for Jesus's Christ's sakeí, that is very strange coming from Swedenborg. That's right. Later he departs from that view and feels
that Jesus Christ is the Lord, is always God.

All One, but there it's sort of one for the
other, the Lord for Jesus Christ. To me, seeing that, I was like oh wow ëDid
Swedenborg say that?í Yeah, yeah his theology hasn't evolved to that point. Right, right, yeah, so okay, so these are
all kind of intense. At this point by number six, you may be saying,
alright, I never want a spiritual awakening but there are pros to the whole thing. For example, number five – that good enough
– gladness or joy throughout your entire body. This is Journal of Dreams number eighty seven,
where he talks about it. ëDuring the present night I slept very tranquilly. At three or four in the morning I woke up
and lay awake, but as it were in a vision.

I could lookí – can I pause you for a second
ñ yeah. What does that mean ñ ëhe wakes up, he lies
awake, but as it were in a vision.í Yeah, okay, you want you want me to tell you? Yes, please. I'll get back to you on that. So obviously, he's describing these very complex,
bizarre experiences to himself, so he's just short handing things that he would explain
more – but after this very tranquil sleep.

pexels photo 6806697

Yeah, right, ëI could look up and be awake
when I wished to, so that I was not otherwise than awake, but as to the spirit there was
an inward joy that could be felt all over the body. It seemed as if it were shown in a transcendent
manner how it all issued and ended. It rose up, as it were, and concealed itself
in something infinite as a center, where love itself was, and it seemed as if it extended
itself thence round about and then down again. In this manner it moved by a means of an incomprehensible
circle from a center which was love, round about then back again.í
mmm So is this him, you know, feeling some of heaven for the first time? It seems so, doesn't it and it's very interesting
that maybe you've got that rational mind in the middle ñ yeah – heavens above, the body
below, and the rational mind is kind of watching, going, what is going on? And heaven is kind of getting hooked up, his
spirit, he says, is getting hooked up with his body but the reason it makes me think
particularly that it's of heaven is that he talks about an infinite love, you know, love
itself is there in the center.

Sounds cool. It's welling up out of that and coming around. And those of you who have read Swedenborgís
works, you see that sometimes he describes where things are in relation to the human
body, in the spiritual world. Yes, this is near the kidneys, but this was
at the level of the chest, slightly you know, raised up and that kind of thing. And so, it seems like that mapping may be
starting to happen where he's feeling things of heaven right in his own flesh. And there's complexity to it, that he's not
just like – man that felt great – he's like no, there was a center and it wrapped around
and it was infinite. And I – – his description of this beautiful
joy, you know in all this stuff, but with the structure to it.

For some reason, to me, that just like ëOh
man, that's awesomeí, you know, like that's so cool that joy and bliss has a structure
and a connection and a meaning. And it's interesting to think, like in a way,
that the child maybe is sort of amazed at this experience and then the scientist is
going, yes and it originated here and it went around then came down ñ thatís right, both
parts – is kind of both parts are in there, getting hooked up in a different way.

Okay, well this stuff is cool but enough with
these, you know, top half we want to get to the most highly numbered or lowly numbered
whatever you want to say. We want to get to number one, right. The only way we're going to do that is to
make it into the next section. We'll be talking about oh you know, just tremors
and chills and that sort of thing. So let's take a look at part three. [Music]
We're gonna open at number four with again something that people – that does happen to
people. This is not an exclusive spiritual experience
and it's none other than chills and shivering. And this is going to be distinct from a greater
shaking we'll see later. But let's start, but let's get introduced
by Swedenborg to when these occurred and why these are more than just regular goosebumps. So this is the Journal of Dreams number forty. ëI went to bed at nine o'clock; the temptation
accompanied with tremblingí – so in this translation trembling ñ ëcontinued until
half past ten.í I wanted to include that because it's time-stamped.

How long was your temptation? Oh it was 90 minutes, you know, – it was an
hour and a half, this is one of those hour and a half ones. Yes, into what what's cool is if you go on
to read from that he says he has his temptation but then he says I was shown the meaning of
it. And he was shown the meaning of it through
this weird series of images.

Yes, images and even kind of they they get
– it's not just sort of things he's seeing with his mind but he's getting very engaged
in it himself. Like it's an interactive – as weíll see. First popped up this guy. Ah, there he is, that's Erland Broman, who
was a guy that Swedenborg knew – that's right – and he says in his explanation that this
guy was trying to invite Swedenborg into a life of shallow materialistic hedonism. Sheer, that's right, sheer physical pleasure
for its own sake and yeah, that kind of thing. That's right, but Swedenborg wasn't having
any of it. And then suddenly appeared this. Yes he saw a snake, a serpent – but it's a
special one! Why? It's a special one because it is Erland Broman's

You heard that right. The snake was his dog. Doesn't it – exactly like a dream. The snake was his dog and so naturally Swedenborg
and the dog start to have a fight. This is all in there and the – snake dog ñ
yes, but while he's fighting it, it sounds a lot like snake again because – describe
a little bit what happened.

It seems like he grabs it by the neck, itís
trying to bite him and he grabs it by the neck and then venom comes out. That's right. Kind of a dead giveaway – yes ñ that itís
not the puppy you know. Again these are not real animals. This is not, I mean, this is like in a dream,
as he says before he described, he says this was shown to me symbolically what my temptation
meant. Yeah. And this is what it meant. That he's wrestling with something with superficialness
and then whatever these snake dogs symbolizes. Yeah and often snakes in his theology represent
the outer self, right, and sensual, those same kind of appetites that he was talking
about that Erland Broman represents to him. Which – he didn't have a theology at the time
but maybe this universal symbolism is coming through before he even – before even knows
what it is – that's right. And snake and a dog in his work, although
that was a very cute little dog – that one was, yeah, I wouldn't fight that – that's
not a problem, but dogs in – he sometimes says correspond to lusts and things like that
ñ in a negative sense ñ yes, in a negative sense, yeah.

That's what he seems to be wresting – and
then this venom comes out and it's trying to bite him, but he's trying to strangle it. Still even with all that imagery I think some
people might say like chills and shivering that's not, that's not a very hardcore symptom,
right. And it's interesting that he shivered, it
might sound like he was shivering for that whole hour and a half – yeah – he's trembling,
you know, he's gone to bed, but he's just shaking – that's right yeah – you know, just
a little bit. If the shaking is not good enough for you
though, check out number three. We have none other than involuntary prostration. Yeah, now this is fun. Yes, let's read a little bit about it. This happened to Swedenborg on numerous occasions
including the Journal of Dreams number 90. As we're descending through these counts,
these are happening more and more in my estimation as I read through Journal of Dreams. And so this happened a lot. ëIn the state I was in, I came still further
into the spirit and although I was awake I could not govern myself,í (There it is again
that sort of lack of self control – but he can tell, he's making a distinction that he
was awake.

Yeah.) ëbut there came as it were an overwhelming
impulse to throw myself on my face and to fold my hands and to pray, as before, about
my unworthinessí (There it is again, – and to ask – and he even notes as before) ëand
to ask for grace with the deepest humility and reverence, that I as the greatest of sinners
may receive forgiveness of sins. I then noticed that I was in the same state
as during the night before last, but more I could not see, because I had become awake.í
hmm So he's in and out of waking and sleeping – and even while he's awake there's this overwhelming
impulse to throw himself on his face, fold his hands, and pray. Yeah. And there are other passages are there not
where this actually happens? Yes, it happens all over and we want to read
you one more where he's so intensely into it, that he doesn't even know if he's on his
face or not.

This has happened so much that he's not even
sure if this happened or not. Right, that this is Journal of Dreams 228. ëI was for a long time in holy tremorsí
– there they are, there is the tremors, right, ëthough at the same time in deep sleepí. Now I don't know how that works. How are you deeply asleep and at the same
time you're aware that you're shaking. Because – if I wake up and like Oh looks like
I moved my sheets all around when I was asleep. I didn't know I was doing that.

That's right, deep sleep is usually – would
be something different than being able to know that you're trembling. So right there, you see some kind of third
consciousness. That's right, not asleep, not awake. ëI was wondering if I would see something
holy.í That's an interesting question, you know, – yeah – like oh I'm shaking, I'm gonna
see something cool now.

ëand it seemed I was thrown on my face, but
I cannot affirm this for sure.í I love that. I don't know, like maybe I was on my face. Yeah. ëAfterwards I was taken away from this state,
and behind my back I found someone with whom I seemed to be acquainted.í So a person enters. ëI was annoyed that he had taken me away
from it, and when he went away from me I told him he must not do so again. The tremors then continued but I saw nothing
further. It meant that what is holy had come to me
and it so moved me that I was carried to my work which I had begun to write today about
the senses.í Oh, that's his book that he's been working on, you know, about the human
body ñ so heís keeping that in. And so he feels like – this spiritual experience
is telling him to keep writing on the book that he's working on.

ëand that I wished that it would not draw
me away from what is more important.í So really intense experience, he's tying it into,
sort of, his day job. Yeah. This, sort of, is about my day job. That's right, and he certainly doesn't seem
to be aware at that point. In fact there's one point in the Journal of
Dreams where he says whether this is leading me to something else or where this is going,
I have no idea. Because he doesn't know, he doesn't – nobody
made a show while he was alive called ëThis is your spiritual awakeningí. He's new – this is your life – and he knew
also that in number two his sleep had changed. He had preternatural sleep. This is the Journal of Dreams 140, where he
talks about it. ëI was this day at intervals in interior
anxiety and sometimes in despairí – there's that emotional side ñ ënevertheless I was
assured of the forgiveness of my sins.í There's that issue – it's not like it comes and goes,
like this is a core thing that he's got to be working out.

ëThus at intervals a heavy perspirationí
– he's hitting all the bases here – ëperspiration broke out upon me until 10 o'clock,í – we
got a time stamp – ëwhen with the help of God I fell asleep. Then it seemed it was said to me that something
will be given from within.í (There's that sense of anticipation. I love that line. I'd be so excited if I knew like something's
gonna be given, yes, thatís right, something about that's cool.) I slept for an hour and a half although in
the night I had slept for more than ten hours. By the grace of God I have had a preternatural
sleep, and this for an entire half year.í So what's that? What is preternatural sleep? Preternatural comes from latin roots meaning
beyond natural.

It's a little like our word supernatural,
and the Swedish is ÷vernaturlig, over, you know – that was beautiful – like sort of – thank
you very much – super, you know, it is like supernatural, – it could be translated as
– abnormal, it could even just mean weird, but he's having not your normal sleep. And it's interesting that he says it's gone
on for over half a year – yeah – every night one of the characteristics – I don't know
exactly what he means by this, but one of the characteristics seems to be extremely
long – like he talks about 10 11, 12, 13 hour nights. That sounds great. Sometimes he's in a blissful deep sleep really
– like what was unusual about it was his sleep was so good, – right – but I tend to think
that what this term means, the preternatural sleep, every night for over six months, every
night I think it's all of the above that we've been studying.

That weíve seen throughout this ñ visions,
waking up, oh I'm trembling, now I'm sweating, now I'm crying, now I throw myself on the
mercy of Jesus. Yeah, yeah, certainly not normal sleep. I mean that that was sort of the first thing
that really changed and then this stuff surrounding sleep. But even that, as often as it was, was not
the thing he mentions most often in his Journal. That is – drum roll, drum roll, number one,
that's a great drum roll; shuddering. And this comes up – when you, when I saw your
notes, this comes up everywhere, youíve seen him pop up in a few before, because this shuddering
was something about the connection of heaven and earth inside him.

Like something was just making him shake. That's right, the chills and the shivering
I think is that little sort of, where somebody else couldn't necessarily see it ñ right
– or you have to look very closely to see ëOh I think you're coldí or something. But I think this is like grand motor – that's
right – you know, big big movements going on through his body which is – I'm so interested
that out of this top ten list so many of them are physical, you know, so many of them are
physical yeah with a spiritual origin and yet the physical bodies being prostrated,
the physical body is shivering, you're trembling or sweating or crying or whatever.

You know, that's interesting. If you don't believe us that he went through
this a lot this number proves it here. This is the Journal of Dreams 242. ëThis was a Sunday. Before I fell asleep I was in deep thoughts
concerning the things on which I am engaged in writing.í Yeah that was his focus, he
had a purpose.

Yeah. ëThen I was told: ëHold your tongue or I
will beat you.í I then saw someone sitting on a block of ice and I was frightened.í
So here we have maybe his first genuine sighting of a spirit. ëI came as it were into a vision; I held
back the thoughts, and one of the usual tremors came over me.í In another translation it
reads, experienced the usual shudder. Yeah just like check check box yep yeah – oh
yeah, he's been through this so much – sixty percent chance of shudders – shuddering is
just going to happen every time.

Just notes to self, like oh yeah, usual shuddering. ëIt meansí ñ listen to this ñ ëit means
that I should not persist in my work so long, especially on a Sunday or perhaps in the evening.í
Now that's really interesting you know, that he just takes it; he does look back on this
as the first time a spirit talks to him and what was remarkable to – the guy on the block
of ice – that's right, the experience to him was, what was remarkable was that this person
knew his thoughts – and he never really seen a real spirit before.

That's right not like this. Not in this way and not to have the spirit
directly address what the total stranger sitting on a block of ice yeah addresses his thoughts,
and said, hey don't think that, you know, hold your tongue or I'll strike you. And at the time he just thinks, oh maybe I
work too much on a Sunday, you know, maybe I'm stressing a little bit about my work,
but later he sees that was the first time that a spirit directly addressed me and that
was just the beginning of this explosion that was going to take place. Because to him, right, he understands things
are different, like his dream life is changing, he's getting more insight, there's all this
stuff happening but he still sort of thinks, I've got my regular life, he doesn't see this
huge, you know, right angle turn or u-turn where he becomes the theologian and Revelator
and gets lucid experience or access to the spiritual world. He doesn't know this is where that's leading.

So we sort of have a cheat sheet here and
then we're able to say here is a spiritual awakening from beginning to end, but when
you're going through it, you don't know that. So this is sort of like, you know, little
advance notice or like backstage pass to something that you know, you don't usually know it is
what it is. Yeah, that's right. So we made it through. There we are. Yeah. And do you have any final closing thoughts
on the whole process? Let's see, I just – it's fascinating to look
at those different stages and to think about, you know, some of those things would be things
that you would experience in a mental illness or something like that. Yeah. And yet, the fact, that he's had such a purpose
and everything, you know, and he's in, he's at a high functioning level or whatever, but
it is also fascinating to feel that he's being prepared but he doesn't know what for yet.

Something is kind of introducing him into
spiritual experience. Here's this stuff, here are these emotions,
here are these thoughts, and as you said at the beginning, affects every level of his
life. Isn't that what life is like? We're always being prepared, but we don't
know. You can only look back and say oh yeah like
that's – that's right – that's, that was sort of leading me towards that, – I didnít know
it at the time ñ it reminds me of when Swedenborg later and is like, you know, Revelator, like
I got everything together, he says that life, divine providence, you know, from God, it's
like, it's like building materials on a building site and just everything scattered.

It looks like chaos but God in his mind has
the blueprint and knows what our life is going to become and, even if we don't. That's right, and he talks about also that
it's like being on a mountaintop and looking back at your own wandering in the wilderness,
where you wandered through the forest then where, you know, and now he's got this different
perspective. And we're hoping to give you a little bit
of that perspective through looking at this journey. It was a lot of information. It was 10 whole things so to make sure we
all retain it well, let's do a little bit of a wrap-up here. [Applause]
[Music] Well, you might be sweating uncontrollably,
even when it's cold, you might be weeping in the night, sometimes for joy, you might
be hearing supernatural noises, sometimes very loud, it might seem like everything is
falling apart or you might just be waking up.

Yeah, you might be seeing spirits of the dead,
is that you, you might have an extra set of thoughts that you can't control, you might
be having gladness throughout your entire body in a structured form, I observe that
my knees are happy right now, you might be just having chills or shivering, when it's
not that cold, it might seem like everything is falling apart or you might just be waking
up, you might also be experiencing involuntary prostration, also known as a faceplant, you
might be picking up some preternatural sleep, awe and amazing, you might experience the
usual shuddering, the usual shuddering, it might seem like everything is falling apart
or you might just be waking up.

Thanks everybody for watching. If you enjoyed this show whether or not you
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Alright, like we usually do, we're going to
take a little time to answer some of your questions if you've been kind enough to watch
the whole show. So let's see what's on your mind. Question number one, Maria: Do people who
do not awake spiritually go to hell? Right well, what do you think? I think – we gotta define terms, right? That's right. I think actually it's pretty hard to go to
hell, you've really got to put your heart into it, and um not awakening spiritually
in this world is not the end of the story. Like after you die, there's lots of efforts
to keep – and even death itself, for a lot of people the way that NDE you know, explain
it, – right – it's a spiritual – you know, that's a spiritual experience, to die.

So no it's not necessary to – there are certain
things that you need to sort of get onto a decent path or treat a few people well now
and then or something but the spiritual awakening is not necessary to go to heaven. Awareness of the spiritual dimension or anything
like that, is not weighted heavily at all according to Swedenborg. It's all about, do you love helping people
or would you not care at all about people and and love harming them for your own gain. For your own sake. The knowledge can get sorted out easily, so
you definitely don't have to go through anything like Swedenborg to avoid hell. All you got to do is avoid Hell, which hell
is, hey man, I'm gonna spend my life in selfishness and ego and all that and I'm not going to
be willing to be taken out of it.

So, so you don't gotta do anything like this
show in order to avoid hell. We all get an awakening, you know, if not
in this life, in the next life. That's right. Okay, cool, thanks for the question. Letís look for the next one – good one. Yeah, Cynthia: When you are dying, do you
see God as you pass over? I think you grow to see God more and more
and more and more to Eternity, right? That's right, and and the way Swedenborg puts
it, that you see, these highest celestial angels are the first people you see – yeah
– and they are just beings of such incredible love and and they have so sort of emptied
themselves to make room for God, kind of thing, that I think for a lot of people it is the
experience of being in the presence of God, they're in the presence of God, so they make
God present for people.

Yeah. And you see that in the epistles, that it
talks about, to be absent from the body is to be present with God. And so I do think that's a part of the experience
for people and there are angels who sort of facilitate it. Swedenborg did have a vision of Jesus, you
know, – he had several actually – he says that God does appear in communities, so yes
and I say more and more forever because you like you you get closer and closer to God
you see God and more things I'm sure that includes face to face. So I, yeah, I mean in all kinds of ways – I
tend to think it goes on forever. Okay, so there's a couple of thoughts. Let's take a look at our third one. This is from Jen: Today I was called a liar,
so I wished that person more peace and happiness than I could ever know. I wasn't really feeling it.

Is this something that is refined through
repetition? Yeah like hey, let's talk about like love
and and and be nice but when somebody does something super annoying, it's like – that
was a great reaction to have. But it's hard to be also be excited and I
think refined through repetition is actually a great way to put it. Yes, that is and I think that's such great
spiritual work. That's what I think of that, as yes spiritual
work – it's a blessing just to have that thought, you know, when anyone calls you something
horrible and and to ñ thatís a spiritual awakening, like, to even think there's a different
way I can react.

I mean, that's how you're starting. Right, and I think it's natural that you you
wouldn't feel it at that time, the New Testament talks about rejoicing and leaping for joy
when you're persecuted. Sometimes I try to practice it. I don't feel it, you know, I'm not happy,
I feel like an idiot or whatever but but I think it's important to sort of start that
siphon. I think there's a siphoning process and eventually
as you say, through the repetition, Swedenborg uses this great phrase about becoming saturated
with it as a result of constant practice. You know, I think that's what it's about. Act – and this is a Swedenborg quote – act
precedes, willing follows.

That's an old translation; that yes, in different
situations he talks about in in marriage and all over, do do what's right and then eventually,
and even in regeneration he talks about initially you're in Reformation and it's just like,
I'm doing it because I have to, or because I was told to, and eventually get to be regenerated. Eventually the heart – the mind and the heart
sort of catch up. You're doing it right and don't worry about
whether or not the feelings are there. All we can control really is is action, you
know, so Jen you're awesome. Okay next one. Does Swedenborg speak at any length about
the correspondence of teeth? He most certainly does, yes, he talks about
teeth and he talks about particular spirits who are with him and as they approach they
cause a pain in his teeth. That's right, yes, you said maps onto the
body. That's right. As they withdraw the pain goes away and everything
and he also talks about the correspondence of teeth.

In what's called the universal human, you
know, that these are particular hard sort of spirits – yeah – you know, the food as
it enters the mouth first greets the lips which are soft and so on but then there's
the teeth that are, you know, kind of grinding – yeah – and they are, that they are sort
of, tough tough spirits who are there who are allowed to kind of break people down,
shake them up kind of thing, but not destroy them and so on. Right, outermost truths and falsities that
are on an individual level. And I also know that recently I was reading,
he said, there's some evil spirit or some hell smelled like teeth. mmm Do you ever hear that? Yeah, am I remembering that right? That's right, yeah. So some positive and negative correspondence. He does talk about that. He certainly does man, if you go to, you know,
Swedenborg search site you can put in teeth you'll see all kinds of stuff. That's right, he talks about the correspondence
of the biblical phrase of gnashing of teeth and things like that. Yeah, all right, we're gonna do one more question.

Let's take a look at what we got today. Cheri: Do you have to experience all 10 signs
to be considered spiritually awake? It's a great one to end on. That's awesome, that's a really awesome question. Yeah, as I say these were 10 of 24 and I think
there were other things that were going on that he wasn't writing about. Yep. This was one account in the Journal of Dreams
but he also writes in a work called the Old Testament Explained a lot about his spiritual
experiences. There's kind of a different list in there
and I think there was a host of different things going on for him. I think it's partly what's useful, you know
ñ yeah, that's right – and I think your, what do they say, you know, your experience
may differ and your results may vary.

Yeah, and what is even being spiritually awake? Like Swedenborg got to a place where he could
like see the spiritual world and go and travel there and learn about it, but you could say
like what Jen's talking about where hey somebody's mean to me and I come back with love, you
know, more and more, that could be what spiritual – so it's different for everyone. Yeah, that's right. And I think there's probably not a hard line,
it's probably by degrees too, you know. He's very much – a lot of his theologies as
you've probably seen is about process, you know, this is a ongoing process throughout
our lives in this world and afterward to eternity, is a phrase that he often uses. And so it's not just a simple go through these
hoops and then you're there, kind of thing, but something did sort of happen for him and
change quite a bit a few years after the experiences we were describing.

It's awesome, great question and thank you
so much for asking and thanks everyone for watching. Thank you Dr. Jonathan Rose because – it was
so fun ñ thatís awesome, thanks for the research and then the commentary and hey man,
great jamming on that piano. Everybody, we'll be back next week, same time,
we're going to be looking at – Why do spiritual things sometimes seem hard to believe? and
Why is there a conflict between our practical mind and them? We're going to get into that next Monday. See you then. Swedenborg and Life is a production of the
Swedenborg Foundation. Curtis Childs is our host and producer. Art direction by Matthew Childs, technical
direction by Stuart Farmer, Ben Kees, visual effects technician. The content writing team is Curtis Childs,
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